To start off, I am Catholic. Everything I say will be based on Catholic beliefs. I tolerate all religions and if you don't want a religion. Either way, continue to read and learn something new about the Christian faith.
A misconception of my faith is that God is a supreme being. This is half right and wrong. God is supreme as in all-powerful, however, He is not one being out of many. This is what sets apart the Christian faith from other faiths.
St. Thomas Aquinas stated that God cannot be placed in any genus. This means God isn't a being, that we could categorize. This would mean God isn't infinite, which He is. While if God isn't a being what could He be.
In Exodus, God told Moses, "I am who I AM". This means God is, was, and will always be. In addition, God isn't one being among many but being itself.
St. Thomas Aquinas also had five proofs of God's existence.
1) The First Mover
Motion is the act of moving and changing. Nothing could move or change itself it needs a force or energy to move. Isaac Newton even stated this by "A body in motion tends to stay in motion unless acted on by an outside force while a body at rest tends to stay at rest unless acted upon at outside force". Everything in the Universe is moved by another.The sequence of motion has to end, it cannot just go to infinity. Since nothing could move itself, there needs to be a First Mover, who is not in motion but causes everything else to be in motion. We call this First Mover, God.
2) The First Cause
No one on earth is the cause of themselves. I was caused by my parents; they were caused by their parents and so on. Causes cannot go on forever because then there is no real cause of life. There needs to be the First Cause, in which there is nothing before Him. We call this First Cause, God.
3) Necessary Being
This proof introduces contingency. Contingency is the trait of going into being and leaving being. For an example, humans live and then die. Even the universe is contingent, it has a beginning about 13.7 billion years ago and scientists tell us it too will end and a new universe will start from another big bang. If everything in the world is contingent, that means there would be a time nothing at all existed. There needs to be an noncontingent being that created everything. We call this Necessary Being, God.
4) Greatest Being
In order for humans to be able to compare things, there needs to be the greatest. For an example, water is cool and ice is the coolest form of water. Predications of degree are compared to the uttermost case. Thomas Aquinas said God is the greatest being and the maximum of goodness and perfection. Nothing is greater than God or equal to Him.
5) Intelligent Designer
Many natural bodies work towards a goal and it's not because of chance. It is because they are guided by someone or something more intelligent than it. Most natural things on earth lack intelligence. Here is a direct quote from St. Thomas Aquinas, "But as an arrow reaches it's target because it is directed by an archer, what lacks intelligence achieve goals by being directed to their end, this being is called God". God is the intelligent designer that directs all things to their end.
I hope you learn something. If the proofs are still fuzzy and confusing to you, you could look them up online. This is complicated theology.
Oh I forgot to mention: the universe is expanding, as if from a central point. This trend in movement indicates if that we were to reverse time, everything would be in one spot, perhaps a singularity where the Big Bang occurred.
Final point (I Swear): Why create reproductive organs if God could simply make more of us?
Riddle me this: Why would Satan torture those who did not impress God as well? Hell should be an eternal celebration.
Also, why does God not fight all other religions? If there is one true "leader", then he should of eliminated the rest and confirmed his existence as the one and only.
As for your intelligence statement, I don't see "lesser beings" following suit. We are a bit more intelligent with speech and such and so we have religions. Animals have one core goal: to survive and continue breeding. No one told them that this was necessary; they act on instinct, so it's not far fetched that humans can develop morals just with human interaction and instinct of our own as well.
Finally your first clause is a bit flawed. You say all things have a beginning, but what about God's? The parents having parents cycle would easily apply to him as well. Then there's the needing a purpose bit. Why does God do what he does? He didn't have to care for humans, let alone make a universe to govern. Sounds a little power hungry if you ask me.
All in all, good blog. You're not the ignorant biased type. It's good to be ambiguous, especially in this topic. +1
Every one of your questions is answered in the Bible, mainly Genesis. I'd give a full response, but it would take a long time to write (even compared to other comments I have written for this blog). If you have such questions, the Bible is a good place to seek the answers.
I request you write it. It'd be good to know the Bible, because I've never read past the first 50 pages.
Please. Provide some friendly bandy. Heck, write a new blog on religious questions. You did the first one fine; I think another is needed for everyone with questions if their own.
I don't know how this blog has be published... The religion is a fragile theme...
Anyway im Italian (Really italian, from Europe/not italo-american) and im grow up like a catholic (Cattolico Apostolico Romano) but i believe in God like Albert Einstein believe him; God is everything, is energy (= materia) is have created the universe in a cientif but is don't decide good or bads things for us. I hope to is can't make goods (or bads) things, becose if is can but is don't does anything, im really said with him.
And the holy bible is not the "true word" of God (or Jesus, etc...) becose this book has be altered so much times with a lot of lies (principally from the Vatican in others olds times) and like that, each century from his creation has been changed every time more and more to the version to we found now in the library's, churches, bookstores, homes and hotels...
HullBreach
19 May 2013 03:14
In reply to MAESTRO AX
Actually, this idea of mistranslations is a fallacy. Each translation of the Bible comes from as much source material as possible. The oldest known surviving manuscripts in nearly complete form exist from the 4th century. The Dead Sea Scrolls, which contain parts of specific books, are believed to date back to the late 1st or early 2nd century, when there were still people alive from the original writings of many of what was incorporated into the New Testament. These writings are word-for-word what is translated today - and they were hidden in a cave from the time or writing to the 1950s! We tend to think of gossip or rumors when thinking of story passage today, but oral tradition and early written tradition were very important aspects of life before television and radio. Entire villages would memorize stories, word for word. These traditions led to self-corrections by their very nature, since someone reciting an improper word or line would easily have a dozen others correcting the errors. Additionally, all of the apostles in the Bible would have either taken daily notes or used scribes to record their days. The book of Mark was written by such a scribe, as Mark was not an apostle. Such written notes would have been copied by numerous people and compared to other copies for accuracy.
You do realize that the Dead Sea Scrolls didn't contain New Testament documents, right?
As for your claims of mistranslations being a fallacy: puh-lease. There are known mistranslations and forged documents by historians and Bible scholars, even within the current canon, such as 1st Timothy, the ending of Mark, and a bit of 1st Corinthians, to name a few.
How are they known to be mistranslations if later corrections were not discovered to correct them from earlier translations. I do realize that the New International Version, which was translated in the 1970s corrected mistranslations of the King James Version. That led to corrections in all translations.
The Dead Sea Scrolls do not contain final manuscripts of the New Testament, but many parts of the Old Testament are word-for-word. They additionally contain eye witness accounts of events that were later documented throughout the Bible as a whole.
By comparing earlier documents to later ones (and not too long later), mistranslations and interpolations have definitely been found, such as the verse(s) wherein Paul explicitly claims that women aren't permitted to "have authority over men". Translations-wise, there are many parts in the Hebrew Bible (Old Testament) that later believers altered to fit the then-current theological outlooks. For example, a good number of times in the OT, you'll see the phrase "the Angels of the Lord", rather than what earlier texts say, "the Sons of God". Essentially, references to the now-known fact that the Israelites were polytheists, and Yahweh (God) was just one of their gods in their pantheon, who later came to prominence after their subjugation to Babylon.
Anyhow, my original point was that the Bible as it stands is far from a fallible book in any respect. The way it was put together over a few centuries was hardly what I'd call sound, and the tarring of other branches of Christianity by those that became the "orthodox" was likewise absurd and (oftentimes) deceitful (Tertullian was particularly bad in this respect).
I don't find it particularly impressive that later biblical texts reference things stated in earlier texts. Why wouldn't later writers try to validate their teachings via a bit of continuity? Done by nearly every religion ever, from Islam, to Christianity, to Mormonism and so on and so forth.
I would like to see your sources for the polytheistic references of the Old Testament. In my studies, nothing of the sort ever arose, and I would like to see the debate among historians for such an issue. Something cannot be a "well-known fact" just because one makes such a claim. In Exodus, the commandment to have no other gods clearly gives the reason that YHWH is a jealous God.
As for Apostle Paul, his writing was in Greek or Latin. As with translating between any languages, there is debate about how certain words or phrases should show in the other language. (For instance, English "love" had 3 separate words in Greek: "agape" - unconditional, "Philios" - brotherly, and "Eros" - romantic). Paul write that women should not speak in church, which sounds very chauvinistic from a man who lived at a time of many priestesses and prominent female religious figures. The original Greek spoke of "gossip", which is something that has no place in a church (yet is still prominent today).
The beliefs of what accounts for biblical canon does differ by denomination, be it Catholic, Orthodox, Protestant, Mormon, etc. Books like the Apocrypha, Nephi, etc., are not accepted by all. The New Testament books that are included among all denominations were probably assembled in about 60-70 years, as the Church formed, starting with Paul's letters and ending with the Gospels, which most likely came from existing journals of the disciples or their scribes. The Gospels made many references to Old Testament canon to validate prophecies. Outside Christianity, the historicity of such validations are debatable, but they are important in the Church to establish Jesus as the Messiah.
I didn't laugh while reading this nor do I disrespect your beleifs and religion. But I do not beleif there's a God. It's all up to the person to beleive or not. Another thing is I do not beleif any of the stuff St. Thomas Aquinas said.
P.S don't try to make me beleive. Please
supertimod
19 May 2013 02:32
In reply to DarkGhost
I said that I tolerate all beliefs. I am not going to force you to believe anything.
I guess I entertained everyone enough. I am done. It's not because I have nothing left to say but it's not worth it. I still believe in the one true God and you wasted the whole day arguing with me. No winners or losers.
Waffle King
19 May 2013 02:51
In reply to supertimod
"Arguing" and "debating" are two separate ideas. Don't assume that anyone with an opposing viewpoint is automatically arguing with you. A friendly philosophical debate is good for everyone, and it's good to keep your mind open to new ideas.
I believe in God as well, but I feel that one thing people on both sides of the argument tend to do is ignore everything the other side says completely. "I don't believe in God, and nothing you say can convince me" or "I believe in God, everyone that doesn't will burn in hell" are both very bad ways to start a friendly debate.
supertimod
19 May 2013 02:55
In reply to Waffle King
If you read our debate, it's not like that at all. I read verything epic and all others wrote. I tried to send the right Christian message. I never said anything like he's going to hell. I tried to convince him that God doesn't send people to hell but people send themselves to hell.
Waffle King
19 May 2013 04:18
In reply to supertimod
No, I knew that, I was just saying. I was actually reading all of this since this morning to see how it would turn out before getting involved myself.
I must point out a flaw in your examples to the Aquinas dialogs. You state that scientists believe in multiple Big Bangs, as a rebirthing universe. More recent scientific evidence actually points to a single Big Bang and an eventual cooling universe. Charles' Law is used in chemistry to describe the relationship between temperature and volume. Combine that with the Law of Thermodynamics, and one can conclude that the constant expansion of the universe, accelerated by dark matter, will lead to an average cooling per unit volume of the universe, alone an asymptote toward infinite volume and infinitesimal temperature.
Additionally, the time dimension (or multiple time dimensions) will dilate with the universal expansion. Initially, time flowed at a standstill and logarithmically accelerated. Due to this, the start of the universe must have come from outside our time continuum. (That fits with the original mover argument.) The universe itself will exist for infinite time forward, but it had a discrete starting point somewhere between 12.7 and 15 billion years ago.
The scientific theories concerning the formation of the universe, as known for just a few decades, fit very nicely into the Biblical explanation of God creating the world in 6 ages, commonly translated as "days" from the King James era onward (since "days" had different additional context in older English). Keep in mind that the Bible was written to be understood by mankind some 3500 years ago, so explanations are kept simple and from the perspective of someone standing on Earth. For example, as the planet cooled, the atmosphere cleared, revealing the stars to the observer. The stars were created with the "heavens", just obscured by a thick cloud cover for millions of years.
supertimod
19 May 2013 01:24
In reply to HullBreach
Oh sorry my school didn't have updated textbooks. I wasn't sure what the actual theory was the most popular now. I thought Oscillating Universe Theory didn't seemed that likely.
HullBreach
19 May 2013 01:31
In reply to supertimod
Textbooks usually get published on information a couple years old, just due to compilation time. The newest theories are probably a year or two old, alongside theories that would suggest there can be no parallel universes, or twin existences (which are popular in sci-fi).
Kin no Kokoro
23 May 2013 14:33
In reply to HullBreach
No parallel universes? :/
Well isnt that disappointing.
supertimod
19 May 2013 01:33
In reply to HullBreach
Yeah but I went to Catholic school. My textbooks were from 2005 and computers from 2003 so it was really outdated.
supertimod
19 May 2013 01:34
In reply to supertimod
My high school have recently new textbooks though.
St. Thomas Aquinas is a great basis on which to establish a dialog to assert the existence of a single Supreme Being. From a Christian perspective, one must follow it with extra-Biblical historical evidence. Great starting points are Josephus and Tacitus, but there are something like 20,000 other surviving historical documents that put Jesus and his divinity into historicity and a provable context. Two key arguments that historians use to establish historicity are adversarial statements and embarrassing situations. For instance, let's say that you and I are bitter enemies. At one point, my scribe notates that I said "I hate so-and-so with a passion, but I admit that so-and-so is a skilled military strategist." What historians can gather is that you must be a skilled military strategist, since even you enemy believed it. Many such statements exist in reference to Jesus and his disciples. When the Bible states that a woman was the first to see Jesus at the tomb, that would have been an embarrassing admission nearly 2000 years ago, when much of society was male-dominated. There were 11 apostles, many of whom fled Jerusalem like cowards, so the woman Mary was one of the few who stayed in town. Historians place such embarrassments as believable, since there would be no benefit to fabricating them. Finally, when one does for a belief, that is seen as establishing valid historicity.
Many of these arguements you make seem very valid, but I also think Epic is great at pointing out your flaws. May you explain the parodoxes in your arguments, like how God is good by human standards. Personaly I think "good" is based on perspective, and therefor, has an indefinate meaning. A criminal cam think greed is good but maybe you think sharing is caring and therfor donatings good. How can God be good, assuming God exists.
supertimod
19 May 2013 03:19
In reply to bradleybrown1198
I never said huma standards. Isaid the rational public standard. Basic morality comes from the natural law. The natural law is the basic determination of good and bad. The golden rule do to others as you would done to yourself is a good example. We determine morality at a young age by this rule. If someone steals from us, we feel sad and realize it's not good to steal. If someone hurts us, we realize it's not good to hurt asomeone. If we experience death i.e. someone dies in your family, you realize killing is wrong and so on. Yes, some people have different views of what is good and bad. That's why I said rational meaning logical public as in popular opinion standard as what is expected.
EpicArtifex
19 May 2013 11:26
In reply to supertimod
So you're saying that the correct morality changes based on the most popular beliefs at the time?
I'm sure the ancient nomads who kept slaves and abused women and wrote the bible thought that they had the correct morality because it was the most popular public opinion. How do you know you aren't just as deluded as them? Years from now, people will likely look back at the morals of today and go "Bah, they were such barbarians, we know now how we're really supposed to act."
supertimod
19 May 2013 03:24
In reply to supertimod
sorry for the mistakes I am human and I am typing with a ds without a pen.
So your saying that that is right? If a human had no other influences on him, your claiming that's how they would "rationally" react. What makes you so sure that that form of reaction is natural and not taught?
supertimod
19 May 2013 11:11
In reply to bradleybrown1198
Yet it's not perfect. And religion is more than just morality.
So your saying that that is right? If a human had no other influences on him, your claiming that's how they would "rationally" react. What makes you so sure that that form of reaction is natural and not taught?
supertimod
19 May 2013 11:25
In reply to bradleybrown1198
Most of morality has to be taught or we would go around doing whatever we want and look on laws of being unfair. The natural law is what humans determine what is good and evil using human reason. Of course like anything it is effect by the environment you live in and the many factors in it.
Your contradicting yourself. How would human nature have to be taught. Please think through what you say.
supertimod
20 May 2013 19:35
In reply to bradleybrown1198
Morality and human nature are different things. Morality is all about choices. There many types of choices the just, fair, wrong, good and etc. I never mention human nature. The natural law isn't human nature itself.
What the? Natural Law, I'm losing you or something. Explain what natural law is then if it's not human nature, and how it's different from human nature. And please back it up with facts or at least evidence.
Alright, I am poor. I am poor in spirit. I see the good in all people. And that's why I been more than nice to your harsh comments.
EpicArtifex
18 May 2013 22:11
In reply to supertimod
They haven't been harsh, they've been critical. If you think that logic is cruel, then that suggests something about the strength of your arguments.
supertimod
19 May 2013 00:44
In reply to EpicArtifex
What's harsh about this argument is you're trying to test my beliefs. Something, I based my whole life on. And I ask you one more time what could you possibly get out of this. You have to understand that I wasn't always a good Christian boy with absolutely no idea of the outside world. Jesus saved from living an immoral and evil life.
EpicArtifex
19 May 2013 00:47
In reply to supertimod
If you're offended by someone testing your beliefs, that suggests you aren't confident about them. Unless, of course, you think that you're entitled to hold a belief without having it tested and still be respected for it, which is definitely not the case.
supertimod
19 May 2013 00:55
In reply to EpicArtifex
No, not at all if you do it in a politically correct way. I wasn't talking about you. You brought a difficult argument but I am going to fight my way out. It shows how much I need to grow in faith. I believe that our faith could always grow stronger and since I am still young, I have enough time to grow. The harsh comments were coming mostly from Raisons du Coeur for poking fun at my religion without a single reason or point.
EpicArtifex
19 May 2013 01:00
In reply to supertimod
What you must not do is take the attitude that your views are unfalsifiable. If there is nothing that could possibly change your mind then you'll be left with nothing if you're proven wrong, except for clinging to a false belief, which just makes you look foolish.
supertimod
19 May 2013 01:13
In reply to EpicArtifex
Tom you're just a kid if your bio is correct. Only a year older than me. You know what makes you look like a fool. You're just angry that I have a belief I hold strongly. You featured this just so you could look so cool by breaking a devout Catholic. But you took a fight with the wrong Christian. You're mad because my views on God disapproves all your views.
EpicArtifex
19 May 2013 11:18
In reply to supertimod
I'm not angry. I am amused. Stop trying to change the subject and make this about me. Questioning my motives does not reinforce your views at all.
supertimod
19 May 2013 01:07
In reply to EpicArtifex
But what makes your belief better or more likely than mine?
Waffle King
19 May 2013 02:42
In reply to supertimod
Wait, are Fartifex's arguments the "cruel" ones, or did someone else post some nonsense that got deleted? Because Fart is putting up a proper debate. Something that's rare, especially in a religious debate.
supertimod
19 May 2013 02:49
In reply to Waffle King
No, I love Epic's debate. I dislike the guy with the unicorn pic because he barely describes why I am gross or wrong for being Catholic. I guess cruel and harsh are overexaggerations. I just hate he disses my faith with no rhyme or reason. I stop debating with Epic because I am tired.
You still seem to be skipping over every other word people type. I never "dissed" your religion. I specifically said it was the way you talk about this that's gross. It's your own skill, or lack thereof, at making any valid point that I dislike.
And when did I poke fun at your religion? I don't see that anywhere. Maybe I'm just much funnier than I know.
supertimod
19 May 2013 03:54
In reply to Raisons du Coeur
Well the whole blurt about the wooden building and eating wafers. That is very sacred to me. You downplayed it and made it laughable.
Now that I read it again, I think I see what you mean. It really wasn't my intention to make a joke of it. I was only pointing out how that all sounds ridiculous to nonchristians. I guess I actually am just funnier than I thought. Thanks for the compliment.
supertimod
19 May 2013 11:17
In reply to Raisons du Coeur
It's hard to debate religion with non-christians because religion is a set of beliefs. I know my agruement is horrible but that's because I know enough to answer every question. I would never claim to have the knowledge of high degree theologian. And you're welcome.
/
You're saying your argument is horrible because you know what you're talking about?
supertimod
19 May 2013 11:31
In reply to Raisons du Coeur
Partially, the bigger problem is the agruement is based on a set of beliefs. And I can't use any of those beliefs to try and justify them, because I would use another belief. For people who don't believe want cold hard facts, all the facts I have are good by they're supported by beliefs.
EpicArtifex
19 May 2013 11:50
In reply to supertimod
You should base your beliefs on facts, not the other way round.
supertimod
19 May 2013 11:55
In reply to EpicArtifex
The fact is I believe and that's all that really matters.
EpicArtifex
19 May 2013 11:57
In reply to supertimod
No, because people will not respect you if you have a belief that you cannot justify, and rightly so.
In my first paragraph, I stated that my target audience was Catholics. That's who the blog was for. Catholics would be able to understand. The Five Proofs are better explained by St. Thomas Aquinas.
I don't like the word 'proof' in this context. There can't be a correct idea because we'll never know what happened. Philosophy is about thinking for yourself.
HullBreach
19 May 2013 00:40
In reply to LinkZelda
"Proof" is a mathematical and philosophical term used to describe arguments that attempt to prove an hypothesis. You may be thinking of the philosophical term "truth", with is a non-refutable law.
supertimod
18 May 2013 20:58
In reply to LinkZelda
yeah I should've used the word arguments but I remember them as proofs because they could be called either or.
Oh god, there's so much gross and terrible stuff here, and you just keep adding onto it, and everything you add has about 50 more gross and terrible things to it. I actually feel physically ill just reading this. And you keep saying things to try to prove your argument, but they're all based on their own assertions and don't adress what the problems with them are. The sky is blue because we live in the eye of a giant blue eyed chinchilla. If we didn't, then why isn't the sky brown instead?
DarkGhost
19 May 2013 02:04
In reply to Raisons du Coeur
I like your point
supertimod
18 May 2013 21:10
In reply to Raisons du Coeur
Look everyone I tolerate your unbelief but I cannot stand everyone attacking me because I believe there is a God. The Rating for this blog is three. Yet, I am the only one who believes in God to stand up and fight. There are missing parts of my faith just like science. I am not a singleton who doesn't believe in evolution or natural selection. I study the same science but religion and science are not the same. My religion doesn't hold answers to science. I could make up a story where my God could explain all scientific mysteries, but that's not what it's about. This could be the only difference between me and you and your going at great lengths to try and change my mind. What will that give you? A sense of accomplishment or joy? This is my faith and you can't change it.
I don't care about your personal beliefs. I'm grossed out by your method of argument.
supertimod
18 May 2013 21:37
In reply to Raisons du Coeur
I tolerate your beliefs and opinions but I am grossed out how you guys gang up on someone who believes in God. If you don't care about my personal beliefs, then why is it you take your time to read the blogs and comments? It's not only you I am talking about. I am talking about everyone here. I never said one harsh thing to atheists about not believing in God. I only stood up for my belief because it means more to me than anything else.
Remember also the time the Euthyphro dilemma was created. It was the Ancient Greece. Plato wrote about Socrates, "Is the pious loved by the gods because it is pious, or is it pious because it is loved by the gods?". In Greek Mythology, the gods had human qualities and desires. This makes their standard not the absolute best. This is a valid question towards Greek Mythology. When it's applied to the Catholic faith, only agnostics and atheists believe it is a valid idea. True Christians wouldn't concern themselves about it because we believe in a God who actually loves us. Not a group gods who dominated their power. An ancient Greek myth about how the earth received fire shows the Greek gods did not love the people.
EpicArtifex
18 May 2013 20:21
In reply to supertimod
It applies just as well to your gods, the only reason you do not see it as such is because you are biased by your preconception that he is all good. From a logical standpoint, there is no reason it could not apply to the christian God.
supertimod
18 May 2013 20:35
In reply to EpicArtifex
So you're telling me that all my comments are pointless because I am Christian. No, I thought it over. This is my belief. I will fight of it until the end of time. You could try to test it on my God. But tell me. Is it good if your God died for you? I believe my God took flesh and died to save me. Any person on earth would agree that is a great thing to do. My God obviously didn't need to do it. My God worked so hard to change the mind of stubborn humans like yourself and that's why I am going to dedicate my whole life to do the same. You could persecute me, say I am blind, or singled minded. Hey, you could say I am brainwashed. But this is my decision not because an outside force told me to, but because I told myself to do it.
EpicArtifex
18 May 2013 22:10
In reply to supertimod
Firstly, you're vastly misinterpreting my words. I never said that being a Christian means that everything you said is invalid, only that your previous argument was a petitio principii fallacy, and that the reason you may not have realised is that you are already biased. If you look at it objectively, it's clear that you're assuming the existence of a creator in the premises to prove it.
Brainwashed people would not believe they are brainwashed.
Kin no Kokoro
23 May 2013 14:37
In reply to EpicArtifex
Then whats to say you're not brainwashed yourself?
Any of us could be brainwashed, but if each of us were to assume the other was brainwashed then the debate wouldnt be interesting.
Before you ask, one hypothetical source of your brainwashing would be whatever first gave you the idea that maybe God doesnt exist, and one hypothetical source of brainwashing for me would be my parents teaching me that God does exist.
EpicArtifex
23 May 2013 18:11
In reply to Kin no Kokoro
It's true that I can't be 100% certain, but I was not GIVEN the idea that God does not exist. Lack of belief is the default, it is how you start out. People are atheists until converted otherwise.
supertimod
18 May 2013 23:02
In reply to EpicArtifex
There's a difference from being biased and stating your beliefs and stating you tolerate others. For my petitio principii fallacy, I realized I am guilty of that. So I am going to try and reword my statements so it won't happen. God is good through his actions and words. His Word is recorded in the Bible and lived through Jesus. Since you don't believe, this means nothing to you but it means more than the world to me. The death of Jesus is recorded in Roman history just like Buddha and any other political figure, but Jesus was different. He claimed to Son of God. That's all that matters to me. I believe it as true but I won't know what is true until my death.
EpicArtifex
18 May 2013 23:05
In reply to supertimod
If God is good through his actions and words, by whose standards is he good? By his own? If so, then you fall into the same fallacy. Why should we believe him if he is judging himself by his own standards?
If he is good by your own standards, then you are judging him according to a scale of perfection that he adheres to, yet he is supposed to be above all judgement from others.
Rewording an argument does not fix it if it's an illogical argument.
Kin no Kokoro
23 May 2013 14:39
In reply to EpicArtifex
Why should we care about any moral standards other than that of our creator?
EpicArtifex
23 May 2013 18:19
In reply to Kin no Kokoro
Because if I told you that you were a horrible person by my standards, that wouldn't suddenly make you believe that you're a horrible person, would it? No, because it's just by my own subjective standards.
So why should God be any different? Just because you think he created us and has the power to enforce his own standards of good doesn't mean they're necessarily the right things to do. God has endorsed many things which today are considered reprehensible, and people tend to cherry-pick the best parts of the bible, and say that the parts that are considered to be immoral or contradictory are merely 'metaphorical' or 'outdated.'
However, that shows that humans can have morals different to God's, and independently to God's. Since God is an unchanging being, his morals would never change. It stands to reason that he would still endorse everything he endorsed in earlier parts of the bible, and that he would still reject everything he used to reject. As such, it's clear that people are reinterpreting the bible to fit to current morals, which is partly a good thing, because if everyone followed old testament biblical morals the world would be a horrible place, but it's also partly a bad thing, because it clearly shows that we can have morals without God telling us them, which is not what theists want to argue.
Also, there is the somewhat more direct point that it's not a GOOD thing that people couldn't figure out that killing, raping and stealing is generally not a nice thing. People had morals similar to that long before Christianity or most religions. It is both insulting and unfair to suggest that I would not be able to form my own opinions on a matter without some supernatural being telling me what I should believe.
supertimod
19 May 2013 01:27
In reply to EpicArtifex
God's Will is all man and women living in paradise with Him. You could be the judge of whether that is fair or not or good or bad.
HullBreach
19 May 2013 01:19
In reply to EpicArtifex
You are correct. God is good by His standards. Morals and truths are derived from what is determined to be God's will. As humans, we do stupid things, though.
EpicArtifex
19 May 2013 11:35
In reply to HullBreach
If you are using 'good' to define all that God believes is correct, then for God there is no difference between right and wrong, and it becomes meaningless to say that he is good at all.
HullBreach
19 May 2013 12:33
In reply to EpicArtifex
No, good would be what God believes is good because He is the ultimate judge of right and wrong. Absolute morality is much different from what many people twist into relative or societal moralities. A means to an end with a positive result can seem overall "good" to some, but it may not be absolutely good. Since humanity cannot see and know all, then identifying absolute moral truths can be difficult at times.
The 10 Commandments are a great foundation, though. It is very difficult to find an example of good among murder, theft, lying, adultery, false god worship, idolatry, hate speech, dishonoring of parents, skipping weekly rest, and coveting. Society generally sees breaking a commandment to preserve another commandment as "good". Is it? Many Biblical examples seem to indicate the veracity of that claim. Let me give a few examples:
1. Hiding a victim or many victims from potential murder through lying
2. Turing in parents to law enforcement for murder
3. Saving a life on your day off work
Here are examples outside of Judeochristian beliefs that fit into these commandments very well:
1. Worshipping ones ego or wealth is self-destructive.
2. Working 7 days each week is detrimental to health.
3. Living of life of hatred will lose jobs and friends.
Every one of the 10 Commandments makes sense to those who are and are not Judeochristian. This, they are absolute morals, derived from a "good".
EpicArtifex
19 May 2013 12:44
In reply to HullBreach
But morals are entirely relative. One person's view of good may be entirely different to another's. Why, then, do you assume that just because God tells us to do stuff and has the power to enforce it, what he says is necessarily absolute 'good'? While it's true that the commandments, for the most part, are rooted in sensible enough reasoning, they aren't the only things that God has done or said, and are probably the least controversial.
HullBreach
19 May 2013 13:46
In reply to EpicArtifex
I gave you examples of absolute morals. Please give me some examples of relative morals to discuss.
EpicArtifex
19 May 2013 14:04
In reply to HullBreach
You didn't explain how those morals are necessarily absolute. People have very different concepts of exactly what constitutes evil and good.
HullBreach
19 May 2013 15:57
In reply to EpicArtifex
Please provide examples of what you consider to be relative morals, and I will explain.
supertimod
18 May 2013 23:16
In reply to EpicArtifex
God is not good by His own standards but the rational public opinion which we based our government on in USA.
EpicArtifex
18 May 2013 23:17
In reply to supertimod
In which case you're judging God? Is God not above your judgement?
supertimod
19 May 2013 00:40
In reply to EpicArtifex
I didn't question nor judged God. I learned about him and realize he is good.
supertimod
19 May 2013 00:35
In reply to EpicArtifex
No, I am not judging God Himself. I making a decision for myself should I believe Him. Yes, God is above me. But are you the one questioning if God is not good? What did you do to have the authority to question his goodness? My faith is not a weakness, it's my power. I am only good if God thinks I am good.
EpicArtifex
19 May 2013 00:49
In reply to supertimod
I can question his goodness because I don't believe in him. You however, as a believer, must explain why you are judging God according to your own standards. After all, if you have looked at God and decided that he is good, then that shows that you have morals which are your own, and are not taught to you by God. If God isn't your moral guide, then why have him? Without him teaching you right from wrong, what is he but a big angry guy who punishes people for pissing him off?
supertimod
19 May 2013 01:03
In reply to EpicArtifex
Because my moral are flawed because I am human. It's not judging by learning about God. Christians have to make decisions too. It's not like God tells us everything we have to do. We call this a moral decision. This is where we take an action and think in the way of God. Most Christians once in their lives question God's existence. It is not because we think we are higher than Him. It's the fact their is still uncertainty. God is still a mystery. Christians don't make up things about him. We take things he revealed to us in nature and divine accounts. God guides the Church because earth and humanity are changing. Humans commit new and it's the Church's job to decide if it is a sin or not. The CHurch is guided by the Holy Spirit which is God.
EpicArtifex
19 May 2013 11:22
In reply to supertimod
You kind of do make stuff up. You cherry pick the best bits from the bible. If I asked you if you endorsed slavery, as mentioned countless times in the bible, you would probably say "No, that part of the bible is based on what was acceptable back then, but it's changed now."
That's exactly the point though. The very fact that you're willing to choose which parts of the bible to believe and which to discount shows that you have perfectly good values and morals without needing God or the bible's guidance at all.
supertimod
19 May 2013 11:39
In reply to EpicArtifex
Well slavery in the Bible is a big topic. So I display my views. One who were the slaves? Most of the time the Chosen People were the slaves. Did God ever tell us slavery was ok? No, it just occur back then. How were the slaves treated? If a Hebrew believer of God had a slave, did he treat them wrong. Jesus never suggested slavery was a good thing and in the Bible, it's depicted as a bad thing. The Hebrew man were enslaved and they were God's chosen people. It teaches slavery is wrong.
EpicArtifex
19 May 2013 11:53
In reply to supertimod
What about the part where it says we're not allowed to eat pigs? Or the part where it says we're not allowed to shave our heads, grow two kinds of crops in the same field, wear clothing made from two types of material and that any woman on her period is unclean? What about the part that says that anyone who curses at their parents must be put to death?
What about the part where God sends two bears to rip 42 children to pieces because they were calling some guy a 'baldhead'?
supertimod
19 May 2013 12:05
In reply to EpicArtifex
Well, the bears and 42 children could be just a symbolic story saying how Hell is more hoorifying than this event. It also displays how much respect God has for his prophets. Not everything in the Bible but the truths behind the stories are real.
EpicArtifex
19 May 2013 12:08
In reply to supertimod
You could not have proven my point better. You are taking the unpleasant parts of the bible and saying that they must be 'symbolic' or something, to try to say how a good God would not do something like that. This shows that you have morals independent of guidance from God, because you are deigning to judge him by your own standards. Why have him at all, then, if you can be a perfectly moral and ethical person without him?
supertimod
19 May 2013 12:16
In reply to EpicArtifex
I need God to be a good moral person. I would love to steal a bunch of money and be rich, but believing in God stops me. This proves their is a point to believe in a God even if He's not real. Also the Church is the one who interprets scripture with the power of God.
EpicArtifex
19 May 2013 12:19
In reply to supertimod
So are you genuinely saying that if, tomorrow, you received completely indisputable evidence that God is not real, and you stopped believing in him, that you would go out and steal money? I'm an atheist, but I don't go out and steal money, so clearly belief in God is not the root of morals. Obviously you don't need God to tell you your morals, or if you do, you're far too dependent on what others tell you to do.
supertimod
19 May 2013 14:05
In reply to EpicArtifex
Not exactly, I trying to say if God doesn't exist, I would replace my religion morals with the incorrect morals that I use to live by. I wouldn't steal like a criminal, but if someone drop a stack of money, I would take it as my own. I would probably lie more. What I am trying to say is I need a concept of God to try and live a pure life.
EpicArtifex
19 May 2013 14:42
In reply to supertimod
But 'pure' is defined, in your eyes, by the idea of God's will. As such, 'pure' means 'What God wants.' You're essentially saying "I need to do what God wants in order to do what God wants," which makes it meaningless and avoids the issue of why you want to do that in the first place.
As for the Euthyphro dilemma,(I googled it) God is good and his will is good. God's standard of good is the best standard of good which none greater can be thought of. As for the diactor example, if God told me to do something, I could say no. I am not punished unless I completely reject Him or do some immoral thing. God doesn't punish us for every little thing we do. Man's free will and rejecting God causes the miseries of the world. You're acting like God is a person and not the true concept of God. It's not God who sends us to Hell. It's a combination of our sins, fear of God, and our shame that leads us to Hell. Jesus said there is a room for everyone in Heaven. Why would He make a room for a person if he was going to reject him. St. Peter is a said to have the key of Heaven and he chooses to let anyone in. Peter was the one of the best disciplines of Christ. Christ welcomed everyone into his presence that is why Heaven is open to anyone. The reason we have to believe in Jesus in order to get to Heaven is because Jesus is the only one that could help you overcome all fear and sin at the same time give us the courage to enter God's presence. As for the last Judgement, it will be our sins that place us in our final resting place. All we have to do is believe in Christ and be sorry for our sins to achieve the Kingdom of God.
EpicArtifex
18 May 2013 20:20
In reply to supertimod
Euthyphro dilemma. That's it.
But that doesn't solve the problem. Goodness is totally subjective and relative. What I think is good may be totally different to what another says is good. That's the essence of this argument.
If I, with my 'flawed' sense of good, created my own mini-universe filled with people, who I would then make worship me, would I not tell them I was perfectly good? And if I had enough power to create a universe, would they not believe me? We both know that I might not necessarily have an 'all good' personality, but to these creations of mine, they will see it as though I do.
Even if I do some truly despicable and sadistic things to them, killing them on mere whims, they wouldn't question that I'm all good, only that they couldn't understand the goodness of one as powerful as myself.
How do you know that God is any different?
It's another petitio principii fallacy. God tells us he's all good. He must be telling the truth, because we know he's all good. An all good person wouldn't lie about it.
You're assuming he's all good in order to prove he's all good.
supertimod
18 May 2013 20:40
In reply to EpicArtifex
If you made a mini-universe, there would still be people who don't believe you're all good. Just look in the mirror. you obviously don't believe God is all good. You don't even have any proof that He is bad. I have the Bible and if you question that I already have comebacks.
EpicArtifex
18 May 2013 22:06
In reply to supertimod
The point wasn't that they'd all believe me, the point is that I'd be making the same claims God makes, with the same authority God makes, yet I would still be flawed. This shows that God's perfection is fallible.
supertimod
18 May 2013 22:11
In reply to EpicArtifex
You just said God's perfection is fallible just so we are on the same page.
EpicArtifex
18 May 2013 22:12
In reply to supertimod
I don't think fallible means what you think it means.
supertimod
18 May 2013 22:17
In reply to EpicArtifex
Doesn't matter because you just said that God existed, because you could not say God is imperfect if you did not acknowledge his existence.
EpicArtifex
18 May 2013 22:18
In reply to supertimod
Now you're clutching at straws. I wasn't accepting that he existed, I was just saying that even if he did exist as you believed he did, your argument for his perfection is flawed.
Does the first cause have to be a God?
And does the designer have to be a God?
Those are the main criticisms.
supertimod
18 May 2013 17:14
In reply to LinkZelda
We call the First Cause and designer, God. He's the one that we believe in. The characteristics of the first cause and designer describe our concept of God. We could call him Greg and say he's a plumber, but obviously a plumber didn't design the universe or have the power to be the cause of all creation.
LinkZelda
18 May 2013 17:55
In reply to supertimod
The characteristics are properties of God, but is God the only deity that satisfies the properties? What if Greg the Plumber also has these characteristics?
supertimod
18 May 2013 18:05
In reply to LinkZelda
See that would cause choas. First off, two infinite forces that are both being cannot exist together. Two, there could only be one creator. The most if not all the universe could calculated using math. Two groups of people couldn't make a simple transconintenal railroad without a percent of error. Three, why would only one deity take credit for His work. Wouldn't the two clash and cause destruction? Why would a supreme being just allow the other to reveal himself? This brings up many promblems and concerns. Most monethistic religions are the most believeable.
EpicArtifex
18 May 2013 20:16
In reply to supertimod
I think he was implying that there IS only one creator, but it needn't necessarily be the god you think it is, or indeed a god at all.
LinkZelda
18 May 2013 20:38
In reply to EpicArtifex
Exactly. It is a universemaker but not necessarily a God.
supertimod
18 May 2013 21:02
In reply to LinkZelda
Who has the power to create a universe? Don't tell me you believe aliens from another universe created this one. A god is a term used to name a superior being so what if I believe in a god and you don't. You came here on your own free will to this blog and keep coming back because you desire the truth. I am slowly leading into admitting there is a universe maker which I call God.
EpicArtifex
18 May 2013 22:29
In reply to supertimod
Do you seriously think we're coming here because we want to be enlightened by you? No, we're doing it because it's entertaining. We enjoy arguing about this kind of thing. You're really not making an impact on our beliefs.
You're missing the point entirely. There's a huge difference between saying there's a being who put things into motion and jumping straight to "I can't explain everything, so there must be a loving man in the sky who flooded the Earth, has a son named Jesus Christ, and wants me to worship him in a big wooden house by kneeling down, thinking nice thoughts, and eating wafers."
supertimod
18 May 2013 21:45
In reply to Raisons du Coeur
There's a huge history behind my faith and I am sorry I do not have the time to explain everything that brought us to going to Church and eating not wafers but the body of my Savior Jesus Christ. You could believe in whatever you want just don't go around with misleading information and try to attack me. The reason for this blog was to teach people about the Catholic faith, not to make an argument about it. If you want to read up about the faith and then argue I will be happy to have a spirited debate. Or we could talk something more your speed like science. You guys probably know more than me in that because I didn't dedicate myself to science which is greater or equal cause in the eyes of some.
EpicArtifex
18 May 2013 16:42
In reply to LinkZelda
The primary mover unmoved seems to make sense, but we have to take into account that not everything necessarily acts causally. Bear in mind that, on a quantum level, science gets crazy weird. Many sub-atomic particles appear to interact and move randomly, with no cause. Since the big-bang is theorised to have come from a singularity, an infinitely small point, who knows what kind of random stuff could have been going on to trigger the universe?
We don't know entirely how conditions were at that point, and we probably will never know for certain, but there's still plenty of possibility that there was no original cause in the deterministic sense. As such, saying that there must have been a primary mover unmoved is a large logical leap. The same applies to your second 'first cause' argument.
As for the contingency argument, you haven't got the definition of 'congingent' quite right.
Contingent truths are truths that aren't necessarily true. For example, a necessary truth would be that 'all triangles have three sides,' since triangles are, by definition, three sided shapes.
Contingent truths, on the other hand, are truths which could either be true or false and there would not be a logical conflict. For example, I could either have had breakfast today, or I could not, and that would not have made me any less who I am.
Except I actually think that's false. But that's the official definition anyway. I'll get into that another time.
The ice analogy for the greatness of god is not accurate, however. Coldness has a limit, since it is just a lack of heat. You can't have any less heat than no heat. As such, once you have no heat, you have reached your limit.
Greatness, however, has no limit. Limitless things cannot exist. Goodness and power cannot be unlimited, or they are incoherent.
If God is the infinitely powerful being, wouldn't he have the power to make himself more powerful? If so, then he was not infinitely powerful to begin with. If not, then his power is flawed. This applies to perfection, and all his other attributes.
Also, there is a particular argument that comes to mind regarding his perfection. I cannot for the life of me remember its name, but it goes as such:
Is what god says good because it is good, or is it good because it is God saying it?
If God can order us to to something, and it is good simply because he is saying it, then doesn't that strike you as unfair? After all, if a tyrannical dictator tells you Everything I tell you to do is good, because I am perfectly good," would you believe him? No, because he is only good by his own standards.
On the other hand, if it is good because it just is good, and he is telling us to do it, then why have God? If there is an objective, set scale of goodness that transcends even God, to which he adheres, doesn't that limit his transcendence?
As for Thomas Aquinas, his assumptions that living beings are a means to and end, with specific goals, and that beings cannot develop without guidance from intelligent beings, are both very tenuous logical leaps, which require more backing up.
It's very close to a petitio principii argument, wherein the conclusion is assumed within the premise. It assumes that there is an intelligent being that created life in order to prove that there is an intelligent being that created life.
It is clear that many things which at first appear designed can easily be explained by such theories as natural selection. As such, it is evident that the illusion of design can easily be present without necessarily being proof of a designer.
supertimod
18 May 2013 17:11
In reply to EpicArtifex
Also we have to remember when St. Thomas Aquinas lived, science didn't know everything we know now.
The ice analogy was actually my fault. I tried to change the fire analogy that worked better. He said fire is the maximum of hottest which I do not truly believe.
What you said about God could be more powerful. you have to remember that we believe God is infinite so his power never ceases becoming greater. That is why he is the maximum of power and greatness.
As for Is what god says good because it is good, or is it good because it is God saying it? Well, since God is good, He doesn't force us to do anything and He doesn't tell us the wrong. God calls all men to Love him, Serve Him, and know Him. This is a small price to pay to our creator especially due to the fact He promised us Heaven if we do so. However, I respect your choice and that proves God doesn't force anyone to do what he wants. He would want you to love, know, and serve Him but He allows you to make your own decision. We have a need for God because humans with reason alone cannot fully know what is good. Just look at split moral issues such as abortion, some people think it's ok and some think it's wrong. Without God, human morality would be corrupt.
Here is the real definition to "Contingent being according to the free Philosophy Dictionary. Something that does not exist in and of itself but depends for its existence upon some other being". I didn't mean contingent truths.
EpicArtifex
18 May 2013 20:05
In reply to supertimod
He doesn't force us, but threatens us with eternal torture if we disobey him, and this is good? If he wants me to make my own decision, but will torture me for eternity if I make the wrong one, how is that free will?
And as for the 'never ceases being greater,' that doesn't solve the problem I proposed at all. The fact remains that, at any one point in time, he could be more powerful than he is.
And the contingency argument doesn't work, because you assume that the universe and its contents cannot exist without a God. While it may be the case that the universe is contingent upon an original cause, the assumption that the cause must have been God is another huge leap of logic, when as explained above, it could easily have been down to the random movements of atoms, or some kind of obscure science we don't understand through our ignorance of singularities.
Arguments through ignorance of a scientific cause only manage to create a 'God of the gaps,' which have been consistently proven false. For example, ancient gods thought to be the causes of lightning and rain were proposed because they had no scientific knowledge of the processes of weather.
Should we not learn from history that gods based on a lack of scientific understanding aren't necessarily valid? Just because we don't understand how the universe was created, or upon what it is contingent, does not mean that it must automatically have been God.
supertimod
18 May 2013 20:56
In reply to EpicArtifex
The One True God revealed it to us and after learning all this about the Universe wouldn't you like to know the who the creator is. Wouldn't you fall on your knees in His/Her/It's presence. As Christians, we call it God. My religion is an ancient religion that has stand the sands of time because it is based on the One True God. As for Heaven and Hell, I told you our God doesn't force us to go to Hell. It's our choice. In the Bible, all it's says is to be believe in me and you get eternal life. My beliefs toward God makes me want to go the extra mile and fight sin and temptation. Even if I wasn't Catholic, I would try to do the right time most of the time. I have to thank you Epic. You gave me the fire to write about my God. In Hell, God does not torture you. It's your regrets, sorrows, and the devil (And wicked people who chose Hell instead of Heaven As Christians we don't know if anyone is in Hell expect Satan and the Fallen Angels). It's still free will. After death, you could go to Purgatory and ask God's forgiveness even after death. Freedom isn't the ability to do whatever you want. It's the ability to live in accordance to the rules and laws of life willingly. If you break the law in any country, you are no longer a free man and are tried in court. Now imagine that with the fairest judge God, He allows to live however you and choose your fate. He tries to get everyone to believe in Him but doesn't force them.
EpicArtifex
18 May 2013 22:08
In reply to supertimod
Where's all that logic you were using earlier gone? It seems you've abandoned that and instead just started spewing some religious mumbo-jumbo about your one true God. It's all well and good that you think I'm wrong, but instead of just repeating your views, why not reinforce them with some facts?
supertimod
18 May 2013 22:32
In reply to EpicArtifex
I would but my goal is now to end the argument with some dignity. Since people decided to make fun of certain aspects of my faith. I had to throw around some religious jumbo. The only reason you want facts is because of the fact that you think I lost, but I will not quit. Tell me would a man who killed Christians for their beliefs have a radical change and inspire Christians for generations to come. Of course, I am not talking about myself. I am talking about St. Paul. A man who was born a Jew and killed thousands of Christians, but after seeing the risen Lord, converted more than he killed. Now, this book of the Bible was written at the time Paul lived. Why would they include a blatant lie if they were trying to convince people. the people who knew Paul wouldn't believe and the early Christians would lose faith if a lie was printed in the Bible. This story has to be true. There's no other explanation. Only a vision from God could change a man that much. If it was a mere person, he wouldn't believe fully or at all.
supertimod
18 May 2013 22:42
In reply to supertimod
you may see this as a story but it's a true fact. The whole idea behind the first cause is that there needs to be a cause. Why would a bunch of matter and energy be in one place 13.7 billion years ago. Since matter cannot be created or destroyed, where does it come from. That means the matter would have had to be either ever-present or came from an unknown source. How did it stay it one spot until 13.7 billion years ago. It should have exploded the earliest time it could. So that means the matter and energy had to exist before then or placed there by an eternal being. What about the idea of the preexisting the time of the big bang. Would it be possible to say the universe was created before 13.7 billion years since the universe is a bunch of matter anyway. What I am trying to say here is that there is no cause for the big bang to just happen. There's needs to be a cause. Since almost everything I know needs a cause that isn't from itself. I believe matter has to be a thing made by God the building blocks of all creation. You could think whatever you want. This is just a science point I wanted to bring up.
EpicArtifex
18 May 2013 22:56
In reply to supertimod
We don't know. Again, you're doing an argument from ignorance, which I've already established is flawed. For starters, I already explained that there are random occurrences on quantum levels, thus potentially eliminating the need for an initial cause. That's the primary cause theory totally debunked. Not 'fact' any more.
Just because we aren't 100% certain on the facts doesn't mean that your God is correct by default.
As for your "Why only 13.7 billion years ago?" argument, some think that time didn't actually exist until the universe. There's a strong chance that this isn't the only universe that's ever existed. Some scientists think that the universe could be constantly contracting and expanding into new universes. It wasn't necessarily waiting until 13.7 billion years ago. Rather, the start of the current universe may have been straight after the end of the previous universe, and it just took 13.7 billion years or so for us to start existing.
Even if the repeating universe hypothesis isn't correct, for all we know, the universe has always existed in some form or another, and it just happened to expand rapidly 13.7 billion years ago, or, far more likely, there is some other scientific explanation that we are nowhere near close to understanding yet.
Your assumption that the universe must have had an initial cause has already been proven false, however, so you cannot claim that it is an analytic fact.
EpicArtifex
18 May 2013 22:36
In reply to supertimod
Abandoning all logic and relying on mumbo-jumbo is neither dignified nor victory. If you cannot come up with any more logical arguments, maybe that's because you're wrong. We did not make fun of you, or your faith, we criticised it. I could have been a hell of a lot more disrespectful if I'd chosen. The fact that you're taking such offence at this suggests that you hold your beliefs too irrationally, and thus are more afraid of having them under scrutiny.
Believe me though, descending into irrational stuff like that previous post will not make people any less likely to make fun of you.
supertimod
18 May 2013 22:47
In reply to EpicArtifex
Do you anything to say about my reply to myself(I pressed the wrong button). It's the one about the big bang and matter.