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My Tiering System Vs. Smogon's

E Avatar By Draconid_Jo
POSTED: 21 Apr 2020 16:09
CATEGORY: Polemic Rant
FEATURED: Yes (Rlad116)
(Go to comments)
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After seeing the above image, I thought it would be interesting to make a Blog examining some of the Pokémon in it, and comparing their classifications in Smogon's Tiering System (both before and after these changes) to the way my own one (which doesn't change based upon how often Pokémon are used in Competitions) treats them.

In this picture, we can see that both Virizion (a Legendary Pokémon, which is LT in my System) and Farfetch'd (which is currently NT in my System, and I'm debating bumping down to BT) were both apparently UU, and have now dropped down to RU, meanwhile Clefairy (NT in my System), Wishiwashi's School Form (DT in my System), and Water-type Silvally (another DT Legendary) all rose from PU to NU.

Now, there are a lot of other Pokéémon in this image, and I strongly encourage anyone who's remotely interested in my Tiering System (regardless of whether or not they like it) to compare how Smogon's System classifies these Pokémon compared to how my own one does, and tell me which one's classifications make more sense to them, and why.

There's a reason why I singled out these particular Pokémon, BTW, and I'm going to explain why.

You see, based upon my 20 years of experience playing Pokémon non-competitively, I (and I'm going to be rather blunt here) think it is completely INSANE to put a Legendary Pokémon (Virizion in this case) in the same Tier as FARFETCH'D (I like Farfetch'd just fine, but it's no Legendary), and I have no idea why this makes sense to ANYONE!
(IK there's a new Galarian Farfetch'd, but is it really as powerful as Virizion?)

As for those other 3, I would personally LOVE to hear some Competitive Player explain why Wishiwashi (a Pokémon I use quite often, BTW) was ever in PU, and why it, Clefairy (which my Sister likes to use a lot, because it's cute), and Water-type Silvally (yet another Legendary) are all considered equals.
(I think most of us non-Competitive Players would agree that a Water-type Silvally is just little bit stronger than Clefairy, lol!)

To be clear, I couldn't care less about the changes in Tier classification in the picture one way or the other, my issue is with the way their System is treating the Pokémon I mentioned (and many others) in general.

I think that Wishiwashi, Virizion, and Silvally (any Silvally) are WAY more powerful than Smogon's System is giving them credit for (and no, I'm NOT just basing this on BSTs or Legendary status, either), and that my own System classifies these Pokémon in a much more sensible way.

Don't get me wrong, I'm sure that I'd agree with Smogon's Tiering System on a lot of things, too, but to say that Farfetch'd (Galarian or otherwise, Stick or no Stick) and Clefairy (a Pokémon I've been OHKOing since Gen 1) belong in the same Tier as ANY Legendary (not counting ones like Cosmog and Cosmoem, of course) will probably never make any sense to me, although I'd still like for one of the defenders of Smogon's System to try to convince me I'm wrong.
(That's kinda why I made this Blog, actually.)

BTW, is that Arctozolt being dropped from PU to NU?

I mean, I'll have to look it up again (I don't have Gen 8 yet, BTW), but it certainly didn't seem like it should be in the lowest Tier of anything to me.
(Is it really weaker than Clefairy?)

Also, one last thing: I don't like the Tier names "NU" ("Never Used") and "PU" (as in "PU! That stinks!") very much, as they are essentially insulting the Pokémon in those Tiers by naming them that.

I bet a lot of non-Competitive Players (myself included) have used more than a few of those Pokémon that their System says are "Never Used", and the name "PU" is just plain mean.
(I guess that Competitive Players don't look at it that way, though.)

I love all Pokémon, even the ones I think are kinda gross (like Garbodor and Muk), and my System is in no way degrading the Pokémon I place in it's lower Tiers, by using such insulting Tier names.
(I felt bad about calling my 2nd lowest Tier "Weaker Tier" before, which is why I changed it to "Normal Tier".)
+2 -1
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Comments

Avatar Dedode
25 Apr 2020 21:56
I don't remember saying that Ferroseed can stop Water-Type Silvally. Those two Pokemon are from different tiers (PU and NU) anyways lol And remember if a Pokemn has only 1 counter it means its OP and should be banned, but thats not the case with Water Silvally.
Avatar Draconid_Jo
25 Apr 2020 22:06
In reply to Dedode
When I was complaining about how Water-type Silvally, Wishiwashi's School Form, and Clefairy were all placed in the same Tier in Smogon's System (which appears to be the case, based upon the Image in this Blog), you used Ferroseed as an example of how even "a Legendary Pokémon" (and you were clearly referring to Silvally, as it was the only Legendary I had mentioned) could be stopped by "a seed", and used that to back up your argument that it was no better than a Clefairy, and that both belonged in PU, and then in NU.
(Rather than Silvally being 3 Tiers above Clefairy, like it is in my System.)

Do you remember now?
Avatar Dedode
25 Apr 2020 22:20
In reply to Draconid_Jo
Ah yes I remember, still maybe thats why Silvally Water is a tier above Ferroseed now. Nothing changes that other Silvally can be stopped by many other Pokemon in PU anyways
Avatar Draconid_Jo
25 Apr 2020 22:31
In reply to Dedode
Yeah, this whole "this Pokémon can stop that Pokémon", and "this Pokémon can OHKO that Pokémon" line of thinking seems a bit overly simplistic, if you ask me.

I mean, take Ramparados, for example.

IDK what Smogon classifies it as (it's HT in my System), but it can OHKO just about anything (especially since it's got that Mold Breaker Ability), and if we applied that same overly simplistic logic to it, you'd think it be up in Anything Goes with Rayquaza, lol!
(I'm going to assume that it isn't, though.)

There's a lot more to Pokémon than what each Pokémon can OHKO a specific Pokémon with a specific build using a specific Move, and things like that, and the number of variables that often get ignored when such claims are used to justify things like Smogon's Tiering System is mind-boggling.
(I'm willing to look at all of the relevant factors, though, and get tired of hearing cherry-picked facts to back up flawed arguments.)
Avatar Dedode
25 Apr 2020 22:49
In reply to Draconid_Jo
"IDK what Smogon classifies it as (it's HT in my System), but it can OHKO just about anything (especially since it's got that Mold Breaker Ability)" Except it doesnt OHKOs everything

While a Choice Scarf is able to patch up Rampardos's middling Speed, it still fails to outspeed faster threats like Lycanroc, Alolan Persian, Floatzel, and other Choice Scarf users like Primeape and Kabutops. Furthermore, Rampardos's primary attack, Head Smash, racks up recoil damage fairly easily, which further hinders its longevity. Rampardos is also pretty susceptible to priority moves like Mach Punch and Aqua Jet, which aren't too uncommon to come across in PU.
Avatar Draconid_Jo
25 Apr 2020 23:04
In reply to Dedode
That's great, I couldn't have done that better myself, lol!

Now, can you explain to me why Galarian Farfetch'd is classified the same as Virizion, when most of what you said (except for the bit about Recoil Damage, which would only apply to Brave Bird) applies to Galarian Farfetch'd, as well?
(Virizion has 53 higher base Speed than Galarian Farfetch'd, which I personally think is a pretty big deal.)

And I already know about the First Impression thing (including that it's Priority 2), if that has something to do with it.
(Seems like a rather weak argument to me, though.)
Avatar Dedode
25 Apr 2020 23:36
In reply to Draconid_Jo
maybe because Farfetch'd is to good for a lower tier and Virizion not good enough for a higher tier so they have to exist in the same tier, where in fact Farfetch'd can put a decent battle against Virizion.
Avatar Draconid_Jo
25 Apr 2020 23:55
In reply to Dedode
You know, that's the first thing I've heard here that actually makes sense, lol!

It doesn't mean that they're equals, or even anywhere near equal, but simply that Farfetch'd was deemed too good for NU at some point (although I have no idea how it wound up in UU), and that Virizion was deemed unworthy to be in UU.

Now, I can disagree with that, but since the terms OU, UU, RU, NU, and PU mean nothing to me (because I don't understand what they truly are, except for in relation to one another), that explanation will have to suffice until I get a more complete picture of Smogon's Tiering System.
(IDK how I'll be able to do that with this lousy 2DS Browser of mine, though.)
Avatar Finrod
22 Apr 2020 17:44
I’m just gonna answer your one question, in that the new farfetch’d is a MENACE with that leek lmaoo. It is an RNG crit machine that’s why. Here is some DAMAGE CALC results i just ran.

-Farfetch can OHKO virizion with non STAB brave bird/ and 55power acrobatics.
-A first impression crit you can deal 83% of Virizions HP, and with a choice band no crit you can deal 63% of virizions HP.
-Meaning virizion is 2 hit KO’d by a NON-STAB first impression from a farfetch’d.
-close combat OHKO’s virizion on both sets too.

Conclusion:
Virizion is a frail and weak Pokémon.

Here is proof
https://3dspaint.com/images/upload_gallery/11665.jpg
https://3dspaint.com/images/upload_gallery/11664.jpg
Avatar Finrod
22 Apr 2020 17:45
In reply to Finrod
See drac, you need to stop seeing Pokémon as “isn’t this a legendary??? Or this is a pseudo??” And base it on individualism. Yes typically legendaries are strong but does that mean all of them are? Sorry man
Avatar Draconid_Jo
25 Apr 2020 12:55
In reply to Finrod
You know, this argument reminds me of how @Dedode was trying to convince me that a Water-type Silvally can be stopped by a Ferroseed, which (as I proved with the Moveset I show in my Comment below) isn't the case.

That Water-type Silvally could 1HKO a Sassy Ferroseed with max Sp. Def and HP (assuming it isn't holding an Occa Berry or an Assault Vest, anyway), and while what you say there is true, you're overlooking a plethora of different factors, much like how Dedode did with his Anti-Silvally arguments.

To address your first point, obviously there are many Pokémon (even Unevolved ones) that could 1HKO Virizion with a Flying-type Move, as such Moves inflict 4× Damage on it, but that's just basic Type Matchups, and doesn't really say anything about Farfetch'd.

I know all too well that that 100% Crit rate thing is impressive (by combining the Stick with a high Crit Move, I mean), but this doesn't change Farfetch'd 's pathetically low Stats, including it's low HP (39 points lower than Virizion's), Def (17 points lower than Virizion's), Sp. Def (67 points lower than Virizion's), and Speed (53 points lower than Virizion's).

Yes, even a lowly Farfetch'd (Galarian or otherwise) can potentially 1HKO a Virizion, but it's ability to do so is contingent upon many variables (including on Virizion's end), and the opposite is also true, and Virizion can 1HKO a Galarian Farfetch'd with a number of different Moves as well, including Close Combat, Focus Blast, Zen Headbutt, Bounce, and Air Slash, depending upon certain variables as well.

And before you mention Eviolite, bear in mind that you would be giving up the primary reason to waste your time using a Farfetch'd in the first place: the Stick.
(Not to mention that a Choice Band on Virizion would essentially negate this effect.)

Overall, Virizion is WAY stronger than Galarian Farfetch'd, and while your (and Smogon's) analysis is interesting, it's looking at it from a rather narrow-minded perspective, rather than taking into account all of the relevant facts.

Also, touching on your point about Virizion being "frail", yes, by Legendary Pokémon standards, it is, but when comparing it to Galarian Farfetch'd, you need to bear in mind just how much sturdier (and faster) it is than that, rather than just pointing out Virizion's frailty, while completely ignoring Farfetch'd's.
(And yes, Virizion has it's Grass-type thing to contend with, although it can be used to it's advantage in any number of ways, which is yet another thing which the straight-out Fighting-type Galarian Farfetch'd can't do.)
Avatar Finrod
25 Apr 2020 13:33
In reply to Draconid_Jo
I was hoping I didn’t need to explain the obvious to you.

#1 First impression has priority
#2 Exactly it’s typing gives it a disadvantage that makes it low tier.
#3 Literally close combat is on there. If you are looking for a non flying type move that OHKO’s.
#4 you are being hypocritical, so now you are judging it solely on BSTs?
#5 Grass and fighting has 6 weaknesses and 6 resistances. It’s not special, it’s average.

“That doesn’t change the fact that it has low stats”
So you really do just care about the stats huh? No individualism. Cool.

Exactly farfetch’d can OHKO virizion, and virizion can OHKO it too. That’s why they’re in the same tier. Surprise! There’s still dominant Pokémon in that tier, virizion is too frail to be in higher tiers, that’s it. The 1v1 doesn’t even matter between them I was doing to see if you even looked at individualism. But you look at no individualism or power, this just confirms it. Stats and status is all you care about. I don’t need you to repeat what you’ve said for the 8th time man. Really can’t stress this enough. That you don’t bring up any new points at all.

Avatar Draconid_Jo
25 Apr 2020 13:57
In reply to Finrod
You're the one speaking in generalities, and (unfortunately) playing fast and loose with the facts again.

I did kinda blow off the First Impression thing, but unless I'm overlooking something here, couldn't that be avoided by using Protect on the first Turn?
(First Impression is a pretty flawed Move from my standpoint, which is why I typically try to avoid using it.)

And I heard what you said about Close Combat (although I didn't verify it yet), just as I assume you heard how Virizion can do the EXACT same thing to Farfetch'd using the same Move, lol!

And I am looking at Farfetch'd as an individual (although I'm also looking at Virizion as one), and I'm not really seeing a lot to justify placing Farfetch'd in anything higher than NT in my System, and the only arguments against Virizion being in such a high Tier in my System all revolve around it being a Grass/Fighting-type, lol!
(So much for individualism.)

And I had REALLY hoped I wouldn't have to explain this to you, but the Grass/Fighting combination can be a good thing, as can Virizion's particular Stat Build, and I'll explain a little bit of this.

First of all, things have changed since Gen 5 when it was introduced, and there are now a number of things (Grassy Terrain being the most obvious) that a Grass-type can take advantage of.

Being a pure Fighting-type, Farfetch'd isn't really immune to anything, it only get's STAB on Fighting-type Moves, it's Movepool is OK, but not that great, and it has low Stats on top of all of that.
(It's not just about BSTs and Status, it's about common sense.)

Do I need to take the time to compile a list of all of the Pokémon that Virizion can both outspeed AND 1HKO to prove my point?

Or, perhaps I should compile a list of all of the Pokémon that could 1HKO a Galarian Farfetch'd that couldn't do so to Virizion?
(HP, defensive Stats, and Speed do make a difference, no matter how much you try to ignore them.)

And yes, Virizion has 6 Type weaknesses, but as a general policy, I try not to let things like that get in the way of using fast, powerful Pokémon.
(I assume you got my point there?)
Avatar Dedode
22 Apr 2020 05:53
"You see, based upon my 20 years of experience playing Pokémon non-competitively..."
Well you have to try competitive battles to fully understand, but... Smogon is special because they run a competitive format that TPC doesn't, wich is 6vs6 and items can be repeated, and devides tiers by USAGE. Also playing against the AI vs playing against a competitive player is a big difference. So if you think that Silvally shouldn't be in a low tier then use and it, make it to the top on the ladder and everyone will notice and start using it. Then two things could happen from there: a) Silvally becomes so popular among NU players to the point that every teams needs a Silvally to win (meaning it gets insta banned) or b) You are just good with Silvally but that doesn't mean the Pokemon is OP.
It doesn't matter if its a legendarie, it doesn't matter if it has great Base Stats or a great moveset... if the Pokemon is down there it means that there are Pokemon that perform better in battles and outclassed Silvally and no one used it again in team. Sad
Avatar Finrod
22 Apr 2020 17:46
In reply to Dedode
Non evolved galariam Farfefch’d OHKO’s virizion lmao. That’s all you need to say.
Avatar Draconid_Jo
25 Apr 2020 13:03
In reply to Finrod
No, it isn't all you need to say.

That's like saying "Non evolved Sneasel OHKO's Garchomp that's all you need to say lmao."

Yes, under certain circumstances that's true, but it's overlooking countless things, much like what you just did with your statement about Farfetch'd and Virizion.

BTW, regular old Farfetch'd can OHKO Virizion, too, so have they always been thought of as equals, even prior to Gen 8?
(I mean, Farfetch'd has been around since Gen 1, y'know…
Avatar Finrod
25 Apr 2020 13:35
In reply to Draconid_Jo
You forgot that I said close combat OHKO’s virizion.
Avatar Draconid_Jo
25 Apr 2020 13:59
In reply to Finrod
No, I didn't.

You forgot how I said that Virizion's (which has 53 higher Speed) Close Combat can OHKO Farfetch'd.
Avatar Draconid_Jo
22 Apr 2020 08:33
In reply to Dedode
BTW, I kinda came up with this on the fly (I usually use Dragin-type Silvally when I use Silvally at all, myself), but tell me what you think of a Silvally with this build:

Silvally @ Water Memory
EVs: 6 HP / 252SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
-Surf
-Ice Beam
-Thunderbolt
-Flamethrower

In my mind, one of Silvally strongest traits (much like Arceus, and Mew) is it's diversity, and since Water is one of the best Types (looking at it from a safety oriented perspective), I think that this would be a pretty good Moveset for one.
(Although I normally would prefer to go with a Mixed Moveset, TBH.)

I'd also show you one of my Wishiwashi Movesets too, but there's actually a chance that I may bring one to one of my Tournaments, so I'd rather not.
(I can't share everything with my opponents, lol!)

But I'm pretty sure even that Moveset I came up with by looking at it's Gen 8 Movepool for 5 minutes blows away the best one in the world for a Clefairy, lol!
Avatar Dedode
22 Apr 2020 11:46
In reply to Draconid_Jo
hum its to simple, I bet there are better special sweepers in its tier
idk much about it but i found out that silvally makes for a good hazard control in lower tiers

Silvally-Fairy @ Fairy Memory
Ability: RKS System
EVs: 48 HP / 200 Atk / 8 SpA / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Multi-Attack
- Flamethrower
- Parting Shot
- Defog
Avatar Draconid_Jo
22 Apr 2020 11:53
In reply to Dedode
Well, that's a nice Silvally to be sure, but the whole point was to show a build for a Water-type Silvally, since that's what was shown in the Picture.
(IDK if Fairy-type Silvally is even in the same Tier or not.)

Still, that's certainly an interesting Silvally, and it confirms a few things about how Competitive Players think.
(Such as their soft spot for the Move Defog, for example.)

Should I try to come up with a Mixed Build for one? Or perhaps a Physically oriented one? Or maybe something more along the lines of a Wall, or a Tank?
(It's Stats are pretty well rounded, after all.)
Avatar Draconid_Jo
22 Apr 2020 07:40
In reply to Dedode
You know, I wonder how much of the difference between my perspective and the typical Competitive Player's perspective has to do with the differences between the Rulesets that Competitive Players go by compared to the ones I do.
(Meaning aside from the Pokémon Banlists.)

Even the loosest of Rulesets offered by GAME FREAK (aside from Anything Goes) restrict duplicate Pokémon and Held Items, and they never restrict Evasion, OHKO Moves, or Baton Pass like Competitive Playes tend to.

Personally, I prefer a simpler (dare I say more Libertarian) approach to Pokémon Rulesets, that keeps things relatively orderly (by not letting you spam the same Pokémon or Held Items on a single Team), without eliminating certain strategies altogether.

I rarely ever use them, but I personally don't like the idea of banning Evasion Moves/Items, OHKO Moves, or Baton Pass (I particularly don't like the idea of banning Baton Pass), not only because IK that some people really like to Battle using those things, but also because certain Pokémon can take advantage of these things better than others, and by eliminating them altogether, these Pokémon will inevitably suffer, which will artificially distort the Metagame.
(And by extension, the Tiering System.)

The Wishiwashi thing gets me on a personal level, BTW, as it's not only one of my favorite Water-types, but (based upon my non-Competitive Battling experience in Festival Plaza) it's quite powerful, too.

I actually gave some thought about bumping it down to HT (simply because of it's dependency on it's Ability for it's high Stats), but anything close to NT (where Clefairy is in my System) just seems ridiculous, IMO.
(I have Wishiwashi's Solo Form in NT, though.)
Avatar Dedode
22 Apr 2020 08:32
In reply to Draconid_Jo
Well you dont see those restrctions in the original games online battles simply because there isn't a 6vs6 format ranked system. Smogon took that task and tried to balance things out with the players. That's how they realized that you can abuse evasion moves, 1HKOS, Trapping abilities and Batton Pass. The result is a fairly well balanced format with plenty of viable Pokemon to choose. Of course nothing is perfect, some battles take up more than a hundred turns due to the infamous Stall teams, that can't just be banned. Maybe that's why game freak doesn't use that format for competitions anymore. Doubles is where its at.
Avatar Draconid_Jo
22 Apr 2020 08:52
In reply to Dedode
Yeah, you're certainly right about nothing being perfect, which is why I'm not even trying to be.

When I first made my System, I basically just drew some lines in the sand (metaphorically speaking), to separate REALLY powerful ones from weaker ones.

I didn't want to deviate too far from my beloved 2 Tier System (which is why it's essentially just expanding on it, even now), and the best way of improving upon it (without contradicting it in some way) seemed to be going based off of BSTs, and Evolutionary status.

I basically just thought about how a Casual Player probably looks at these Pokémon, based upon not only how high their Stats are, but whether or not a Champion uses them in-game or something, whether or not they are presented as equals in-game in some fashion (like how all of the Fully Evolved Fossil Pokémon are HT in my System, for example), etc.

I made certain adjustments that (without getting too long-winded) could easily be explained to a Casual Player, without me having to use a bunch of confusing terms, or make a bunch of out of the blue assumptions about my opponent.
(Which is how I feel when Competitive Players try to explain things to me, BTW.)
Avatar Finrod
22 Apr 2020 17:48
In reply to Draconid_Jo
I mean it’s okay if you don’t want to be perfect, and I know you’ve received backlash in the past, but I just want to say stop trying to dunk on smogons tier list though. It’s kind of just unnecessary at this point. It’s fine, but don’t say things like “this is BETTER” like I get it’s your opinion, but it’s just beating a dead horse now.
Avatar Draconid_Jo
25 Apr 2020 13:15
In reply to Finrod
If I didn't believe it to be the case, I wouldn't be saying it, and I actually intend to prove it.

While I was away, the idea occurred to me to have a Rematch with @Dedode , where he goes by my Tiering System, and I go by Smogon's.

I'll need to try to figure out which Tiers in my System are the rough equivalents of the Tiers in Smogon's, but after I do this (which is something you could help me with, BTW), I intend on doing so.
(Assuming Dedode's willing to as well, anyway.)

I'll obviously need some way to see the list of all Pokémon in each of Smogon's Tiers before it can happen, but based upon what little IK about Smogon's System, I'm thinking a Battle where I restrict myself to PU (and the restrictions that Smogon puts on Evasion, OHKO Moves, etc.), and where Dedode restricts himself to NT (along with the much looser in-game Rules I intended for my System, which simply prohibit duplicate Pokémon and Held Items) would be a reasonable test.

If I'm right in my assessment of Smogon's System (and their Rulesets), it shouldn't be hard for me to take advantage of their usage based Tiering System and win, whereas if y'all are right about my System, it should be easy for Dedode to take advantage of mine, especially considering that he won't have any restrictions prohibiting him from using Evasion Moves, OHKO Moves, Baton Pass, etc.

Does that sound like a reasonable method of comparing my System to Smogon's to you?
Avatar Finrod
25 Apr 2020 13:34
In reply to Draconid_Jo
I feel like Dedode would just win solely cause he’s a good player, i wouldn’t think it matters, especially when he beat u with low tier Pokémon already.
Avatar Draconid_Jo
25 Apr 2020 14:08
In reply to Finrod
He beat me with Pokémon that are low Tier in Smogon's System, not mine.

From my perspective, my Team was mostly UT (with my Giratina-Origin being my 1 LT Pokémon), and the core of his Team were Victini (LT), Togekiss (HT), and Krookodile (HT), and he also had a Xerneas (LT), a Lucario (HT), and an Amoonguss (which is only ST) in the background.

You're absolutely right about him being a Skilled Player, but that doesn't change the fact that without his Victini (which is a Mythical LT Pokémon), his Strategy wouldn't have worked, and that even the 2 HT Pokémon he used had their Hidden Abilities, which is the only reason his (rather ingenious) Strategy even worked.

In other words: Not just anyone could replicate the Team that Dedode had, and he was fortunate enough to have Mythical and Hidden Ability Pokémon that many Skilled Players don't have.
(My Team had a couple of Shinied on it, but other than that, it could easily be replicated by most Players with a Copy of US/UM.)
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